I know this is kind of absurd right now. With half the world gearing up for Christmas, why am I puzzling away at hellfire? To which I can only say, blame Al. (He dubbed himself Not Buying on the comments thread of the TEDx video talk I gave, then Fred in a subsequent email exchange, but since the Paul Simon song You Can Call Me Al runs through my head at regular intervals, I’ll do as Paul advises and do just that.)
The discussion was about what Al calls “the hellfire penalty” in both Christianity and Islam – “the notion that it is good and right to destroy/burn the souls of people for mere disbelief, and that disbelief itself is a kind of sin-crime, making disbelievers sinners/criminals.” (Judaism doesn’t go for hellfire – we just get thrown off a rock as scapegoats, which is what ‘go to hell’ means in Hebrew.)
Now, you could say (as I did) that it makes no sense for an atheist (Al) and an agnostic (me) to be arguing about something neither of us believes in. But this belief, as Al pointed out, does have very real effects. It “demonizes nonbelievers,” he wrote, and can be used to see them as a threat to the security of the souls of the believers. Violence against them can then be rationalized as a way of helping to save souls.
(If that sounds obscene, consider an argument that has been used by Islamic extremists to excuse killing fellow Muslims in suicide attacks, including those killed on 9/11: they are doing them a favor by ensuring that their souls go to heaven as martyrs. Someone as cold-blooded as Carl Rove couldn’t have come up with a better rationale for “collateral damage.” But then we’re all merely collateral damage to the fanatics, whose rationalizations for violence are both endlessly inventive and endlessly repetitive. Remember the twisted logic of torturing witches? If they survived, that meant they were really witches and so should be killed; if they didn’t, that meant they were innocent and so had gone to heaven. A nice Rove-ian way of shrugging it off.)
What depresses me most about the literal belief in hellfire, though, is what seems to me a terrible nihilism. It implies that this life – this world we live in — is of no importance. What is important is eternity – your soul in the afterlife. Religious faith then becomes not a matter of being a better person in the here and now, but instead, a kind of long-term Investment Retirement Account. And one based entirely on fear.
Worse still, life itself becomes the enemy. If to live is to place one’s soul in jeopardy by risking eternal hellfire, then better by far to die while you’re still “safe.” This world becomes the enemy of the next, which is indeed a terrible, and terrifying, way to live.
In the past, I’ve had letters and emails from fundamentalist Christians assuring me that I will burn in hell and that they will pray for my soul (this, for saying that Mary’s virginity is a wonderful metaphor instead of a physical description). Though tempted to say that I would meet them in hell, I replied simply that I appreciated their concern and welcomed any prayers I could get. The response was inevitably along these lines: “Oh my God, you actually read what I wrote, I’m so sorry, I was just letting off steam, I wasn’t really thinking of you as a real person…”
So how do we all become real persons for each other? Not abstractions, not just another of the billions of souls wandering through eternity, whether heaven or hell or somewhere in between, but real, live, thinking, feeling people here and now, on this earth. How do we bridge the awful gap between religion at its worst — blinding us to our own and each other’s humanity – and at its best: opening our eyes to precisely that?
I don’t know. What I do know is that I’m with Al on this: I hate the idea of hellfire. Not because I’m afraid of experiencing it, but because I’m afraid of what it does to people who take it literally.
I don’t think of the hellfire penalty as one of unbearable heat. I think of it as utterly, immeasurably cold: hearts turned to stone, human warmth to icy indifference. So I leave the cold, inhuman reaches of infinity to the physicists and the astronomers – and to those who claim to be so loyal to their idea of God that they presume to be God. Unwilling to wait for the Day of Judgment in which they so fervently proclaim their belief, they imagine that they can be both judge and executioner.
In religious terms, I believe that is called heresy. There’s also a more everyday word for it: evil.
Just wondering, but what you are objecting for your soul in hellfire, that line of rationale seems to apply for belief in heaven/afterlife/soul in paradise too.
Maybe I’m commenting too quickly after reading your entry, but well, that’s what it sounds like.
I’m really not worried about my soul, Villainx, but about the soullessness of over-literal belief in hellfire.
Oops, sorry. I didn’t mean specifically your soul.
I guess if there is a soullessness of over-literal belief in hellfire, then it sounds like it’d be applicable to an over-literal belief in heaven/paradise/afterlife. Or that’s my initial take.
I have to re-read your post more careful and think about it.
I was taught by my unusual Arabic teacher and Imam that the hell fire in Islam is a COLD FIRE. Yes –– “hearts turned to stone.”There is coldness and separation, isolation even, which for those who think collectively as they did at the time of Revelation, is terrifying. It seems to be the penalty for self-betrayal, for jumping over “the natural state” of love and harmony toward self and others. Symbolic–– yes!, as Lesley says, not literal.
That’s what I was taught too. It made me conclude at the time that its a psychological hell rather than a literal hell. Becoming unable to live with oneself. Some people may call it conscience. This is also the description we see in some gnostic interpretations of different religions (such as Sufism and Gnistoc christianity). Cold hell would be worse than hot hell (if it was there)!
To me it’s not the hellfire that’s the dilemma. It’s that bridge between faith and the understanding that your particular faith is not like any other person’s faith.
But what scares me about belief and faith is that they too often appear to me to be reasons to excuse a person’s selfishness. The idea that, to some, their faith be a window to see everyone as human I find to be a fair damnation of humanity in general. If they require faith to have empathy, then are they worth having empathy for?
I am terrified by the idea that such a huge number of people require faith to avoid terrorizing their own neighbors, their family, their community. And yet, when I look at the spiritualists, I find I have the same derision. There I see faith as a justification for selfishness and tempered only by the relatively universal rules against the horrors of fanaticism.
Which is worse? Hellfire and damnation or the new age love of the self?
Excellent ending three sentences. Shukran. Ma’asalaamah.
(Lesley’s last 3 sentences, to be specific!)
[…] Hellfire at Christmas? Lesley Hazleton […]
your article reminded me of Frost’s poem “Fire and Ice”.
Very well said- from a fellow Agnostic (by way of Judaism by birth, Catholicism by conversion, and Buddhism by heart). The Catholic kids used to pray for the souls of the “pagan babies” (any non-Christians). So much evil has been and continues to be done in the name of “religion”- I’m with John Lennon, “imagine no religion”- now, that would be heaven on earth!
Thank you Susan (and John Lennon). But I do have to point out that to cite the evil done in the name of religion is not in itself an argument against religion — unless, for example, you want to cite the evil done in the name of love and use that as an argument against love…
There is no heaven and there is no hell. They are not geographical, they are part of your psychology. They are psychological. To live a life of spontaneity, truth, love and beauty is to be in heaven. To live a life of hypocrisy, lies and compromises, to live according to others, is to live in a hell. To live in freedom is heaven, and to live in bondage is hell.
-osho
My father told me once that the only observable behavioral difference between believers and nonbelievers is that the former go to church on Sundays, on all other days they cheat, lie, steal, speed and run red lights, get drunk, abuse children and spouses, you name it, equally. However that would not stop the believers from demonizing the nonbelievers, thus I fully side with your concerns.
What bothers my logic is that not believing is considered the kind of sin of the highest magnitude: a person can be honest and hard working, helping and caring, and still set to burn in hell if he does not pay respect to god, not that it matters to that person as he anyway thinks that there is no hell. On the other side a criminal has a good chance to escape the eternal damnation, provided that prays enough, exhibits guilt and gives money to the church. He might even get some sympathy in the religious community. This variety of justice doesn’t seem divine at all to me. It must come from the church entertained certitude that the nonbeliever is rotten to the core, even if all seem good on the surface: it must be faked.
There is grace in living without god, in accepting our existence on Earth as is with dignity and responsibility, knowing that its only meaning is just relative, if any.
Lesley,
After this, I think I’m going to have to change my moniker here from the seemingly disgruntled “Not Buying” to something less oppositional. I wouldn’t want to be stuck with that, considering for example, that I agree with practically everything in your article here. But I think we are going to have to share the blame for bringing up hell-fire in the Christmas season, because, after all, you put the question to me.
———————————————-
For those readers who want to study the Quran online, here are some free resources that I’ve found useful:
http://corpus.quran.com/
http://tanzil.info
http://al-quran.info
http://altafsir.com/
http://www.tafsir.com/
I would like to point out the first Sufi saint Rabia’s al-‘Adawiya’s famous exploit of running through the streets of Baghdad with a flaming stick and a bucket of water, saying she was going to put out the flames of Hell and burn down the gardens of Paradise so that people would not worship Allah for fear of the former or desire for the latter, but only for the sake of Allah alone (which is a difficult concept enough to understand as a practising Muslim of Sufi orientation, let alone anyone else!)
My personal hell is the burning ache that engulfs my heart when I am hurting others, judging, ‘playing God’ – in other words not living in truth, and my personal paradise is the peace that overpowers me when I am. That is all I can honestly say I believe the Islamic ideas of hell and paradise to be, and I don’t think I am heretical or even particularly unorthodox for holding those views.
It is sad that believers feel threatened by non-believers, and this inevitably makes them aggressive (even if only in attitude), exposing their uncertain faith. However, any rigid belief is dogmatic, and atheists can certainly become just as ‘religious’ in their denunciation of religionists, their condescension, their judgement, even their hatred.
Real ‘religion’ is invisible, and cannot be charted by trips to the temple or size of beard or demonstrable acts of worship. In this way – and this is absolutely in line with classical Islamic thought – it is impossible to judge the quality of another person’s faith (or lack of) purely based on their behaviour, or indeed anything else; after all, ‘Allahu ‘Aleem’ (only God knows). As Karen Armstrong points out in the History of God, the kafirun (disbelievers) referred to in Qur’an were people bent on the annihilation of the nascent Muslim population and its new way of life and thinking, and it takes a very long stretch of the imagination to apply it to atheists in the modern-day sense of the word.
Wonderful research and writing by the way, Lesley. I am forwarding the link to your TEDx video to everyone I know!
Medina,
You write: “As Karen Armstrong points out in the History of God, the kafirun (disbelievers) referred to in Qur’an were people bent on the annihilation of the nascent Muslim population and its new way of life and thinking,”
1. Are you saying that you accept the belief that _all_ the people referred to in the Quran as non-believers (kafirun) were out to kill Muslims?
2. Are non-Muslims in the Quran always referred to as kafirun or are there other labels also?
“…and it takes a very long stretch of the imagination to apply it to atheists in the modern-day sense of the word.”
You think this is an improbable interpretation? Do you believe most Muslims today do not view atheists as disbelievers (kafirun)?
A kaffer is one who knows what is being said is true, but covers it up. The root, kaf, fa, ra means to cover. The Arabic word for farmer comes fr the same root because he covers seeds.
Leslie
I apologize for the length of this post I get carried away at times.
I don’t find it at all unusual to have concerns about hellfire/eternal punishment. It was one of the main problems I found with Christianity for many years. I could not conceive of the loving God I believed in and was taught about condemning some of His children to eternal damnation. After all, if as a parent, I could not do this with my children, regardless of how disappointed I might be with their behavior, how could a God whose love is infinitely superior to mine do so?
Rather than reject religion, however, I pondered the apparent contradictions. I saw much to give me reason to believe in a higher power, so I did not reject God or religion, but I certainly questioned what many were saying and teaching. I came to realize that it is arrogant for us, the created, to believe we should fully understand the Creator. After all, the Bible says that the books are sealed until the end times.
I think it is healthy for us to search for meaning and question. It’s important to recognize that the Bible as it exists is a political document. What was included or excluded was determined by men. The Catholic Bible has more books than the Bible I grew up with. So, while I believe in the Bible as the inerrant Word of God, there is always the question of interpretation and understanding. If it is the inerrant Word of God, then there should be no inconsistencies. If it appears there are, then I believe this is a result of our limited understanding. If one views spiritual writing as both literal and metaphorical, that can help explain some of the apparent contradictions. After all, Jesus Himself spoke in parables so that we might better understand. Who is to say that many of the stories in the Bible are not metaphorical rather than or in addition to being literal?
While I believe that our souls come into existence at conception and are eternal, and I believe in an afterlife, I do not believe Heaven and Hell are physical places, but states of being that actually exist in the here and now. When we are in relationship with God, we are more closely “in Heaven” and when we are out of relationship with God, we are more closely “in Hell.” I can think of many times in my life that I felt like I was “going through Hell” and those tend to be when I am more inwardly focused rather than thinking about those around me.
I believe in the idea of no compulsion in religion. While those of us who believe (regardless of religion or denomination) are called upon to teach others about our beliefs, we are not to force the issue. That’s why God gave us free will. An all powerful God does not need help. If we did nothing, does one not think God can change us if that is His desire? He has given us the will and mind to think for ourselves. At this stage in the progress of humanity we can all read and reason on our own. My “job” is to teach you about my beliefs and encourage you to investigate on your own. If you like what you find, then you can accept it. If not, then move on. From my understanding, there is no risk to me. And the only risk to you is that you will find yourself farther from God in the next life. And this may be emotionally painful in the next life. But I don’t think you will “burn eternally.”
As for what we should do in this life, while I believe that we are “saved” by the Grace of God, I tend to view that as God’s mercy. Not that all we have to do is say we believe and we are saved. Our works cannot “save” us, but we are still called upon to love one another and behave towards our friends, enemies and strangers with love, compassion, tenderness, humility, mercy, etc. This helps to prepare us for the next life. When we were in our mothers’ wombs, we did not need eyes, ears, nose, hands, feet, etc. in the womb, but those evolved while in the womb so that we would be prepared for our physical life in this world. Similarly we need to develop spiritual attributes in this life to enable us to function in the next world.
God’s mercy does not mean we are free to do what ever we wish without regard to the consequences. For me it means that He will forgive me for my mistakes, no matter how many I make.
I am a member of the Bahá’í Faith and this is where my beliefs come from. Of course, some of this is simply my understanding. If you are interested or have not heard of the Bahá’í Faith, check out this website. http://www.bahai.us/
Notice how evil spelled backwards is live? Suggest stopping all beliefs and realize what is real is what is here… It’s Simple…
“Who is this god that granted you the long life. Certainly not some force. What is it that has been carrying you regardless of the abuse that is thrown at it. Regardless of anything else it has been there unconditionally. Obviously the condition of it deteriorates according to what one do with your free choice. How you affect God, that God is your physical body. When that ends, you end”. — BernardPoolman
Cathy, thank you, but I tend to get very wary when phrases like “it’s simple” and “it’s obvious” are used, which is why I exerted my ‘moderator’ function and shortened the long quote you sent.
Interesting how the words and realistic meaning of ‘Oneness and Equality” is misunderstood, judged and seen as something to be ‘wary’ of when life really is ‘obvious’ and ‘simple’ within the ‘Equality Equation’.
Is it not as harmful and arrogant to insist (to those who do believe in God) that He does not exist, as it is to insist (to those who do not believe in God) that He does exist? Perhaps if people listened more, and opened themselves to all possibilities, greater understanding of one another could lend to greater peace between one another.
To assume that a belief in hellfire means that my faith is based on fear is too simplistic to come from a mind like yours I think. In Islam we are taught to love and fear Allah, meaning to strive to do those things which please him and to avoid those things which go against him.
If I say to you, “I will give you all the wealth you need and all the things you desire, if you are true to me” and you decide, of your own free will to reject my offer, can you blame me if I give you nothing? So, what about god, who supplies you with everything, including your own free will which most westerners at least, consider highly valuable, even a defining attribute.
It seems to me that hellfire is a necessary component of the Christian system from a philosophical standpoint; without it, the system completely breaks down. If there is no punishment, then the only motivation to do good is reward (Heaven). But frequently the near-term reward for good is not as attractive as that of evil. In a world absent punishment, the rational mind would do evil because it would be more profitable. Hellfire changes that dynamic completely.
There’s no Jewish tradition for throwing anyone off a cliff as a scapegoat. It’s supposed to be a literal goat, once a year; hence the term.
Dear Lesley,
First let me apologize to you for only knowing about you a couple of hours ago. I saw one of your videos on Youtube and I was instantly mesmerized. Thank you for existing in a world full of ignorant, prejudiced bigots.
Well, my name is Adel, I’m 41 year-old medical doctor. I’m Egyptian, born in Kuwait, was raised in Egypt and Saudi Arabia, got my boards from USA, where I lived for 6 years and in 4 states.
This introduction was necessary to let you know that God gave me the great gift of understanding and tolerance, but after many years of shaping and formatting.
As for the current topic about hell fire I’ll talk from my understanding of the Quran (which I know you read). God speaks about a place where people suffer and live in anguish, they talk, eat and drink, they fight and argue and live in a state of hatred and misery. So, this is not the fire we use to make barbeques! Where do you think a sex perpetrator or a career criminal should live?? Prison is not nice, just like “Hell”. I believe that “hell” is a living arrangement for those who would otherwise hate to be in a quiet, serene, peacful loving environment, so God gave them the place where they would feel rather at home.
Besides, in the Quran there is a very clear verse that says “no soul knows what God had hidden for them in the afterlife”, i.e., all the verses in Quran about paradise, rivers, gardens, streams, virgins; and all the verses and fire, burning, torture and anguish IS JUST A METAPHOR. It is the only way God can approximate ideas that are far beyond the reach of our limited imagination. It is just like when a 6 year old asks you how sweet sex is, how will you explain to this child the joy and ecstatic feeling of love making, you will say it is as sweet as a chocolate. Well, I hope my comment was a useful one. Thanks a lot for taking the time to read it.
Jean’s Take: My Dad Says I’m Going to Hell
http://www.youtube.com/user/JeansTake#p/u/20/-QXnZ64jO5Y
No one has the true answer to..this question yet but thats part of the job of researchers and investigator…One of the leading theories concerning what..orbs are and the one that I lean towards the most is that they are not..the spirit at all. According to the..laws of Physics energy being transferring like that would assume is natural..shape of a sphere.
I believe that God understands that people are and will always be of different backgrounds, ranging from the very ignorant to the very educated.And here lies the magic of the quran, the simple and primitive depend on their primitive instincts fear and the desire for plenty. hence the literal description of heavens and hellfire works for these ppl. But if u r a more sophisticated , cultured person u can see beyond the literal as u have lesley in yr tedex talk. Amazingly God likes more the educated type as he says ” Those truly fear God, among His Servants, who have knowledge: for God is Exalted in Might, Oft-Forgiving. ” [….]