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Egypt

Posted July 4th, 2013 by Lesley Hazleton

I’m surprising myself by writing this.  And I’m sure I’ll surprise — and maybe severely disappoint — many of you who read this blog.  But then Egypt has been surprising us all for the past two years, and I suspect will keep surprising us for some time to come.

The point being:  even though I share the extreme wariness — indeed, the loathing — of the idea of the military intervening in politics (any military, anywhere), I’m glad that the Egyptian military has ousted the Morsi regime.

Is it really a coup d’état, as many (non-Egyptian) liberals are saying, and as the Muslim Brotherhood insists?

Not exactly.  The army forcibly removed a democratically elected government, but not a democratic one.  An analysis of the Brotherhood’s dismal failure in The Huffington Post points to its “limited understanding of democracy, which is restricted to the mechanics of voting, elections and ballot boxes, while showing precious little appreciation for the values that make up the essence of a democracy, such as the rule of law, citizenship, equality and human rights…  Morsi and the Brothers believe that winning an election gives them carte blanche to run the state as if it was their feudality.”

A constitution illegally rammed through is not democratic.  Nor is a refusal to be held accountable.  Or an iron grip on all offices.  Or repeated attempts to ban freedom of speech and to undermine the judiciary.  Or the demonization of all opposition as treason, and the summary arrest and torture of opponents.  The Brotherhood won election by the slimmest of margins (with a percentage of the vote that would by all accounts be halved if elections were to be held again today), but instead of acknowledging this and reaching out to the public as a whole, it opted for authoritarianism.

Egyptians did not follow Western rules in response.  They did it their way, taking to the streets, which is something Americans might have done in far greater numbers when George W. Bush won two elections under highly questionable circumstances in the United States.  Much of what he accomplished was way beyond the bounds of legitimacy.  And need I really say that the same goes for a certain government elected in Germany in 1933?

Not that the Egyptian military is any sense a neutral power-broker.  It’s protecting its own interests — or as the New York Times headline has it, acting in allegiance to its privileges.  And those privileges are vast.  The Egyptian army is a huge corporation, essentially a state within the state.  And like most big corporations, it’s a law unto itself.  Which is precisely why the opposition called on it to act, which it did with what many outside Egypt (and of course within the Muslim Brotherhood) see as alarming alacrity.

Will the generals do what they promise and restore a real democracy?  Nobody can be certain.  But I suspect that in essence, when push comes to shove, they will be shoved.

The era of political quietism and subjugation of public opinion is over.  Egyptians are no longer afraid to speak out.  They’ve found their voices.  And I seriously doubt if, having found them, they’ll let themselves be silenced again.  Or be flummoxed by heady electoral promises.

The generals know this as well as anyone else.  And whatever else they may be, they’re no fools.  Successful businessmen never are.  They have to be fully aware that if they do not organize new elections as promised, the ensuing public outcry will dwarf that of the past several days.

What’s happening in Egypt is a continuation of what began two years ago with the overthrow of Mubarak.  It gives the lie to the dumb journalistic meme of “the Arab spring,” as though revolution were a a seasonal matter, limited to a two-month timespan, and as though change could be achieved overnight.  Real change is a long process, and a difficult one.  But what strikes me more than anything about Egypt right now is that despite the military, it promises to be an irreversible one.

Unlike Egyptians themselves, I can only hope that this promise is fulfilled.

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File under: Middle East | Tagged: Tags: Arab spring, coup d'etat, democracy, Egypt military, elections, Morsi, Muslim Brotherhood | 23 Comments
  1. mary scriver says:
    July 4, 2013 at 1:58 pm

    Thank you. This rings true. On Indian reservations the rule “winner takes all” overpowers “the minority must be protected if you want to stay in power.” The Repubs are thinking that over.

    Prairie Mary

  2. Ross Chambers says:
    July 4, 2013 at 2:54 pm

    British rebel MP George Galloway said yesterday on Australian Broadcasting Corporation that “revolution is a process, not an event” which may summarise your last paragraph.

  3. tonosanchezreig says:
    July 4, 2013 at 3:51 pm

    Reblogged this on Al-Must'arib (the vocational Mossarab) and commented:
    Right on the spot.

    But… my fear (because there’s fear in my ideas) is that islamists and salafis won’t accept graciously to be set down and moved away so simply.

    Also I feel that the army will have the temptation to keep power for themselves, and rule as many egyptians request smiling from Tahrir. Why?

    Just this morning I heard on spanish public TV news that there’s already been night fights and combats in the Libyan border, which increases the suspect of transfers of weaponry and radical fighters from that hell into explosive Egypt. That could create inestability, attacks on churches, on politicians, on women, on foreign tourists, on seculars, in the same way that happened in Algeria for decades.

    The objective would be simply to provoke the failure of the new government, the retake of control by army, based on emergency situations that can last for years, … and the failure of the whole project, in the same way as happened in Syria.

    I remember when the “Arab Spring” appeared, all annalists said that main damaged by it had not been the west, for loosing its political pawns, but Al-Qaeda, and all those armed resistance groups, as people revolted without violence, and achieved far more that way than following armed resistance practices.

    Well…. Libya and Syria have been good examples of how hard and fast they could react to crush any hope for achievement of a real democratic system through peaceful popular uprising.

    And they are facing a new chance with this 2nd Revolution and the return of military to power.

    It’s not over, for them… and for the revolution. It will be hard and will last for years, if it’s not stopped PEACEFULLY AND DEMOCRATICALLY now. If not, we’ll face an “algerisation” of the Nile nation, with jihaddist gangs creating trouble and a military junta with extended emergency powers… while seculars and well-aimed individuals who promoted this necessary social and political change look at the painful global outcome in absolute astonishment.

    That’s my fear.

    And still… I want to have hope.

    KEEP CALM AND MAKE IT WORK NOW, MISR!

    • Lesley Hazleton says:
      July 4, 2013 at 6:58 pm

      Good last line!

      • tonosanchezreig says:
        July 5, 2013 at 5:04 am

        ouch!…. just last line!?!?!? LOL

  4. Salah Obeidallah says:
    July 4, 2013 at 6:08 pm

    I think you should read a CNN op piece which goes against most of what you said. Yes Morsi and the brothers don’t have a true understanding of democracy but no one went to jail for expressing dissent , nor were any TV stations closed nor did we hear of any violation of human rights. The Op piece on CNN web site suggests that he was trying too much to be accommodating which helped to bring his downfall. The Prime minister , interior minister, defense minister and 5 other ministers were not from his party. The problem is that remnant of Mubarek era, a corrupt security apparatus , an army that refused transparency and Gulf money willing to help the opposition to assure no credible Islamic example of governance is established.

    This coup, if not reveresed , will radicalize main stream Muslims that democracy has proved to be a moderating influence over their conduct and policies.

    • Lesley Hazleton says:
      July 4, 2013 at 6:51 pm

      Salah — I think we might be reading this piece differently: http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/04/opinion/coleman-muslim-brotherhood/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

  5. Salah Obeidallah says:
    July 4, 2013 at 7:05 pm

    I was referring to this article , not the one you referred to.
    In Egypt, get ready for extremist backlash – CNN.com

    • Lesley Hazleton says:
      July 5, 2013 at 6:03 pm

      Yes, it’s started already, and only makes me more sure that they had to get out of power.

  6. tonosanchezreig says:
    July 5, 2013 at 12:53 am

    Funny to hear that Gulf money is fueling the secularist opposition, when it’s Gulf money what fuelled salafis all over, from Mali to Syria and beyond…

  7. Guy de la Rupelle says:
    July 5, 2013 at 7:04 am

    Here’s an interesting point of view, loosely translated (by me) from the French.
    The title, for starters, is suggestive of what’s to come:

    Egypt: Ramses II was not Muslim

    In the mythology of the old empire of the Pharaohs, the god Ra travelled the universe each day in his sacred boat. At night, he sailed in the underground worlds of the dark forces. At dawn, he hunted the dark and shone in the firmament of the heavens in his dazzling sunlight. General Abdel Fattah al-Sissi, who just replaced Mohamed Morsi in the presidential palace doesn’t really have the look of the god Ra. This centurion entered politics sword in hand and has a more mundane vision of things. But much of Egyptian public opinion expresses it its appreciation of hunting power proponents of obscurantism.

    The Muslim Brotherhood, who wants to reduce the Egyptian identity to a narrow and sectarian vision of Islam, should meditate on these ancient beliefs. They would have found the risk of awakening a very ancient people to the neurotic brutalization that it is trying to impose. Egypt existed as a state 3 500 years before the Prophet Muhammad arose in the deserts of Arabia and founded a new religion. Customs coming from ancient times coexist with Islamic and Coptic Christianity. For example having picnics on the graves of the deceased, a contemporary avatar of an ancient ritual of pharaonic Egypt.

    The simplistic ideas of the Muslim Brotherhood

    The Egypt is not only a piece of the Ummah, the community of believers, but a real nation, the most powerful of the Arab world, at the gates of the Mediterranean world and Europe. Egypt was Roman, Byzantine, Islamic, Ottoman. It is also partly Christian: it is St. Mark, who founded the Church of Egypt and it is in Alexandria that the apostle of Christ was martyred.

    Egypt is also Nasser who for 15 years was the lighthouse of secular Arab nationalism. It is also Anwar el-Sadat, who dared to defy the taboo of taboos in making peace with Israel. A peace which, chugging along, seems to last and the Egyptian army is its de facto guarantor.

    The Muslim Brotherhood, with their simplistic slogan “Islam is the solution” and their charitable actions which are often supplemented by failing government agencies, managed to seduce many Egyptians. Especially in a time where they appeared as the only force to challenge a regimethat seemed fossilized. But it cannot govern a country of 85 million people with Surahs from the 7th century. A country that has the chance to dispose of major assets: competent executives, oil resources, the Suez canal and tourism which in itself is a gold mine.

    A little complicated to manage with the simplistic ideas of the Muslim Brotherhood…
    ___________

    Source: Le Point, written originally in French by Pierre Beylau

    • NHK says:
      July 5, 2013 at 9:37 am

      I agree with lady Hazelton write up on Egypt.

      • Lesley Hazleton says:
        July 5, 2013 at 6:10 pm

        Thanks NHK, but I assure you there’s not a trace of aristocracy (“Lady”) in me!

    • Lesley Hazleton says:
      July 5, 2013 at 6:08 pm

      Love the French sense of irony! Yes indeed, the simplistic worldview of fundamentalism v. the complex reality of government. A year ago, the hope was that the Brotherhood would be capable of making that leap. It all too clearly wasn’t.

  8. M.Afzal Tahir says:
    July 5, 2013 at 1:27 pm

    I am surprised to read your piece on the coup in Egypt. On the one hand you say you loathe military intervention yet in the same breathe you say you are happy that army intervened in Egypt. I make this to be, in very polite terminology, selective application of your principles or ideas, application that suits you. Taking one point only, that brotherhood thought democracy to be the voting only and nothing else. we have seen political “rulers” doing what they wanted once in power, no matter their ratings fell to some 20% ( remember Bush and Blair). It is always the case : the politically elected “rulers” doing what their imagination deemed fit knowing that it would only be through an unexpected accident that they could be forced to leave office before the expiry of the term. So what wrong was committed by the brotherhood government? may one ask. Why don’t you be honest to yourself and tell your readers that no doubt democracy is desired but not the one by which brotherhood comes into power. Is it due to a latent fear that some day some where the myth of western democracy may be shattered?

    • Lesley Hazleton says:
      July 5, 2013 at 6:21 pm

      No, M. Afzal, it’s not due to that. It’s due to the fact that fundamentalism is antithetical to any kind of democracy. Note: fundamentalism, not Islam (all fundamentalisms — including Christian and Jewish fundamentalism). The Brotherhood claim that Morsi’s ouster proves that Islam and democracy don’t mix is nonsense — a blatantly false rationalization of theocracy. In fact it’s fundamentalism and democracy that don’t mix.

  9. shahab says:
    July 6, 2013 at 5:15 am

    Read this article titled The Racism of New York Times’
    “Muslims are not ready for
    Democracy” by omid safi
    omidsafi.religionnews.com/2013/07/05/nytimes/
    Do read. 🙂

    • Lesley Hazleton says:
      July 6, 2013 at 10:14 am

      I totally agree. Could hardly believe my eyes when I read that comment by David Brooks. What a dick.
      Do also read Max Read’s analysis of it on Gawker and especially his comment at the end that “it’s worth noting that it took the United States thirteen years after rejecting monarchy to settle on a stable, constitutional form of monarchy” —
      http://gawker.com/david-brooks-is-mentally-unprepared-for-egyptian-democr-678039879

  10. Abdul Wadood says:
    July 6, 2013 at 8:41 am

    I’m a young, Pakistani, Electrical Engineering Student who’s in the process of revamping his ideas on life, religion, love, politics and what not. And I beg to differ from Lesley.
    Maybe Morsi and the brotherhood didn’t understand democracy in its essence, maybe they just thought of it as counting and voting, but then if they’re not allowed a tenure in power, how will the Egyptian people mature? The West has had ample time to test and absorb Democratic Values; the Middle East (and Pakistan) has not. Shadows of the Caliphate and Pan Islamism still linger in our collective sub-concious.
    But I doubt that the Brotherhood would have been more orthodox than the Taliban. According to Pakistani standards, Egyptian Fundamentalism is very soft, and as such not demanding of a coup. There are democratically elected dictators, thieves, corrupts and tyrrants in lots of countries, does this allow their armies to do the same as the Egyptian general? Just because Islamic Fundamentalism is on the stage of the Global theater doesn’t mean we should allow dictatorship.

    • Salah says:
      July 6, 2013 at 8:49 am

      Well said. But no matter what we say… They will make exceptions to the rules and defy logic blinded by a perception of what Islam inspires.

      • Ismail says:
        October 31, 2013 at 9:28 am

        Yes. But I consdier Leslie among the few who is trying hard to rise above age-old prejudices against Islam they unconsciously hold.

    • Lesley Hazleton says:
      July 6, 2013 at 10:26 am

      I actually agree. It seems to me essential that the Brotherhood not be demonized, but included. This also means that the Brotherhood itself not demonize, but be inclusive. Will this happen? I can only hope so. As you say, the shadows of dictatorship, whether theocratic or military, loom large, dark, and very close. And I think Egyptians are very aware of this.
      Your point about the West having had ample time to test and absorb democratic values is absolutely to the point. (Even with all that time, it’s still problematic, because no system of government is perfect, and people are resolutely imperfect.) Which is why I wish Western pundits would stop preaching about democracy and give Egypt time and space in which to try to work things out — their way, not necessarily ours.

  11. AJ says:
    August 16, 2013 at 3:06 am

    Limited understanding of Democracy
    Really !!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Whats unlimited.

    We have witnessed this limited understanding in Algeria and Hammas.

    I think Chuck also had limited understanding of terrorists.
    Those who had unlimited wisdom they knew Hizbullah were terrorists when Israel attacked Lebanon killing scores of babies and innocents.

Could That Video Be Self-Defeating?

Posted September 15th, 2012 by Lesley Hazleton

Could that pernicious video have ended up working against itself?  Could this be the tipping point for both Islamophobia and its mirror image, militant “Islamist” extremism?  Is this where both are revealed for the ugly con game they really are?

Perhaps the one good thing about the video is that it is so upfront in its ugliness.  It’s no longer just you and I saying it;  it’s also the US Secretary of State, Hillary Clinton, whose anger was palpable:  “To us, to me personally, this video is disgusting and reprehensible. It appears to have a deeply cynical purpose: to denigrate a great religion and to provoke rage.”

Now we know who made the video:  a convicted con man, Nakoula Basseley Nakoula, indicted on multiple charges of bank fraud and check-kiting.  And he may indeed end up back in jail, since by posting his work to the Internet he violated the terms of his probation.  That’s little consolation, of course, for the multiple deaths he’s caused — at least a dozen so far.  And none at all for those who don’t understand that the principle of freedom of speech, no matter how hard it is to accept, applies to all. Under a different administration, the same principle by which they demand that he be jailed could then be turned around and applied to them.

But we know more.  We know that the protests against the video have been used and manipulated by Al Qaeda and Salafi types, who manipulated the sincere outrage and insult of protestors to further their own political agenda and try to destabilize newly elected governments.  In the process, they also furthered the agenda of their Islamophobic blood brothers, providing graphic images of Muslims doing everything Islamophobes expect — rioting, burning, killing.  But for the first time, all countries involved seem to have clearly recognized this and given voice to it, perhaps none more perfectly than Hillary Clinton: “”The people of Egypt, Libya, Yemen and Tunisia did not trade the tyranny of a dictator for the tyranny of a mob.”

We know that Twitter is alive with condemnations of the violence from Libyans, Tunisians, Egyptians, and more.  Mainstream Muslims, both religious and secular, will no longer tolerate being intimidated into silence by those who claim to speak in their name for a violent, extremist travesty of Islam.  They are speaking out in unprecedented volume and numbers.

And we know this:  the new governments of Libya and Yemen instantly condemned the violence and apologized for the death of Ambassador Stevens.  In the words of the president of the Libyan National Congress, it was “an apology to the United States and the Arab people, if not the whole world, for what happened.  We together with the United States government are on the same side, standing in a united front in the face of these murderous outlaws.”  Residents of Tripoli and Benghazi staged demonstrations to condemn the attack on the Benghazi consulate and to express their sorrow at the death of Stevens, who was widely admired for his support of the revolution that ousted Qaddafi.

Even the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt finally realized that this was not a matter of defending Islam against outside enemies, but of defending it against its own worst enemies on the inside.

All this, it seems to me, is new.  As is the reaction of the US administration, led by Obama and Clinton — calm, measured, determined, and in the spirit of Ambassador Stevens himself,  the opposite of the heavy-handed American imperialism of the past.  Imagine if this had happened under Bush, or under Romney, and shudder at how they would have reacted.

Could it be, finally, that more and more people are getting it?  That both the Islamists and the Islamophobes are losing?  That sanity, however high the cost in lives, might actually prevail?

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File under: fundamentalism, Islam, Middle East, ugliness | Tagged: Tags: Al Qaeda, Egypt, Hillary Clinton, Islamophobia, Libya, Muslim Brotherhood, Nakoula, Obama, Salafis, Tunisia, Twitter, Yemen, YouTube video | 9 Comments
  1. Yafiah Katherine says:
    September 15, 2012 at 12:15 pm

    It’s so refreshing to read such a clear-headed account of the situation. I’ve been feeling so down-hearted throughout this awful mess and I hope too that it will become clearer to everyone how Islamophobes and extreme Islamists are mirror-images of each other. But surely there is a line between freedom of speech and hate speech that incites to violence? I’ve been so frustrated at the BBC reporting on ‘a video that Muslims find insensitive’ instead of saying loud and clear that it’s totally unacceptable as much as the manipulation of the protests is totally unacceptable. I’m tweeting your post and sharing it on FB. Thank you.

  2. Sandra Peters says:
    September 15, 2012 at 1:00 pm

    Lesley,

    Thank You for such an excellent perspective of how the world is reacting to the video. Violence and destruction are not the answer. “Calm, measured, determined, and in the spirit of Ambassador Stevens himself” as you so wrote will prevail.

  3. burhan says:
    September 15, 2012 at 2:03 pm

    Lesley hazleton, Im your biggest fan and I wish I could ever come to the same intelligence level as you one day! Burhan Adhami

  4. Herman says:
    September 15, 2012 at 5:29 pm

    Amazing,
    In Egypt they televise a series based on the fictitious Protocols of the elders of Zion, in Iran a conference is held regarding the non happening of the Holocaust, Christians are murdered all over Muslim Africa and Egypt and you are blaming everything on Al Quaeda.
    You are kidding right?

  5. Qaisar Latif says:
    September 16, 2012 at 1:32 am

    Well said.

  6. Meera Vijayann says:
    September 16, 2012 at 1:34 am

    Thank you for this great read Lesley. Honestly, when I watched the video, I first thought it was absolute nonsense, and was surprised that such rubbish could be taken seriously. In fact, if the movie was indeed to be taken seriously, it was perhaps a good opportunity for the Muslim world to ignore it and refuse to stoop so low by giving it the attention it intended to garner.

    As you rightly said, I am glad too that the Bush government isn’t in power. I shudder to think of what would’ve happened if it were.

  7. Meezan says:
    September 16, 2012 at 8:56 am

    Silver lining to a very very dark cloud.

  8. Tea-mahm says:
    September 17, 2012 at 1:49 pm

    You go girl! Good piece. Sending love from Istanbul where the call to prayer wakes me in the morning…..

    • Lesley Hazleton says:
      September 17, 2012 at 2:56 pm

      Sooooo envious! One day I will make it to Istanbul!

The Antidote to 9/11?

Posted February 16th, 2011 by Lesley Hazleton

There’s been a ton of punditry about what the Tunisia and Egypt revolutions mean for America, and you can bet there’ll be several tons more.  But I suspect its biggest effect is yet to register, and that is psychological.  Because these two revolutions – achieved through determinedly non-violent action – constitute a radical, positive challenge to the politically manipulated atmosphere of fear and paranoia about Islam.   In fact, as New York Times columnist Roger Cohen put it, 2/11 may be the perfect antidote to 9/11.

Too optimistic?  I think not.  There’s a very good chance that we’re due for a major paradigm shift here in the United States — one that seemed unimaginable just a few weeks ago (and one even a congressman like Peter King, head of the HUAC-like committee due to start ‘examining’ the supposed radicalization of American Muslims (“are you now or have you ever been an American Muslim?”), might have to take into account).

What’s happening all over the Middle East challenges the crude stereotypes of “Arabs = riots.”  Of “Islam = terrorism.”  And above all, of Islam as somehow fundamentally anti-democratic.

These stereotypes run deep.  Think of the scenes shown in the American media from the first week of the Egypt uprising.   A close-up of 200 people prostrated in prayer, excluding the tens of thousands who stood behind them, not praying.   A protestor holding a poster of Mubarak with horns and a Star of David drawn on his forehead – the only one of its kind, it turned out, in the whole square.  Or a few days later,  the replay after replay of Molotov cocktails – “flames lead” being the mantra of TV news – reinforcing the image of rioting Muslims out of control, “the Arab street.”  It was exactly the image Mubarak was aiming for.

Thus the pumping up of the Muslim Brotherhood as a threat by both the Mubarak regime and conservative western pundits, as though the Egyptian protesters were extraordinarily dumb and naïve.  As though they were not highly aware of  how the 1979 Iran revolution was hijacked and perverted.  As though they couldn’t see the fundamentalist regime in Saudi Arabia or the Hamas regime in Gaza.   As though the Brotherhood itself were unanimously stuck in the 1950s mindset of ideologue Sayyid Qutb.  As though the only way to be Muslim was to be a radical fundamentalist.

Thus the surprise in the west at the sophistication of the Tahriris, when “the Arab street” turned out to include doctors and lawyers and women and IT executives (you could practically hear the astonishment:  “you mean there’s Muslim Google executives?”).

Thus the continually stated fear, stoked by the regime and by conservative pundits, that the protestors would shift from nonviolence to violence – that the nonviolence was merely a cover for some assumed innate propensity to violence.

Thus the slowness to realize that the old anti-West sloganism had been superseded, and that this wasn’t about resentment of the west;  in fact that it was about the very things President Obama had talked about in his speech right there in Cairo in June 2009 – about democracy and freedom.

In short, what we heard and saw in those first few days was the modern version of Orientalism:   The idea that the ‘Orient’ – that is, the Middle East (it should come as no surprise here that the geography is as weird as the idea itself) — is an inherently violent, primitive, medieval kind of place.  Or as right-wing Israeli politicians have been endlessly repeating for decades, “a bad neighborhood.”   And that the responsibility of ‘enlightened’ westerners and despotic leaders alike was to keep these benighted people under control.

But as the uprising went on into the second week, something began to change. Nobody at the blog of Seattle’s alternative newspaper The Stranger, for example, which one would have thought the first to support any kind of uprising, even bothered to comment on it at first.  When they began to, it was with their usual weary stance of pseudo-sophisticated cynicism.   But by the day after Mubarak unleashed his goons in Tahrir Square, when the protestors’ response was to turn out in larger numbers than ever, even The Stranger gave in to excited support.   How not, when millions of people stood up to repression and dictatorship in the full knowledge of what they faced if they failed – arrest, torture, and death?   Would you have such courage?  Such determination?

So here’s what I saw here in the States:   more and more Americans abandoning their unconscious Orientalism in favor of stunned admiration.

And that’s the beginning of something new, the very thing Obama declared twenty months ago in Cairo:  respect.

Finally.

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File under: Islam, Middle East | Tagged: Tags: Cairo, Egypt, Google, HUAC, Islamophobia, media images, Mubarak, Muslim Brotherhood, Obama, Orientalism, Peter King, respect, Roger Cohen, Sayyid Qutb, The Stranger, Tunisia, Wael Ghonim | 10 Comments
  1. Sana says:
    February 16, 2011 at 8:07 pm

    There’s hope in the air…. Thanks Egypt!

  2. Lana says:
    February 17, 2011 at 1:42 am

    Thanks Lesley … i do wish there is hope …

  3. Mary Sherhart says:
    February 17, 2011 at 1:57 pm

    Hope is a rare commodity these days. Thank you Egyptian people!

  4. Adila says:
    February 18, 2011 at 6:27 pm

    Wonderfully written. Exciting times indeed.

  5. Shishir says:
    March 14, 2011 at 6:41 am

    I am sorry I don’t agree. The long term effects of these revolutions are still not known. It remains to be seen if Muslim Brotherhood will not form a parallel government or at least have extra constitutional authority. It remains to be seen if these countries will demonstrate same eagerness in throwing out religious fundamentalists. It also remains to be seen if a truly secular democratic country would arise out of Egypt.

    The evidence from the past suggests that secularism
    and Islam don’t gel. Even with the charter of Medina.
    I believe you are a scholar of Quran, or at least you’ve studied it, I’d suggest you also study the history of Islamic kingdoms and Islamic republics.
    Lets have a look at Iran and Pakistan, these are two
    countries which are “democracies”, but have you ever looked at their blasphemy laws or their constant
    persecution of religious minorities. I wouldn’t say that
    it doesn’t exist in India, and we claim India is a secular democracy (I laugh every time I say that). But at least we are not sponsors of international terrorists, may be because we are poor but yet. I also don’t understand how one can suggest that Islam is
    tolerant especially given that it doesn’t make any distinction between state and religion. If a believer
    and non-believer are not same in the eye of religion
    they can’t be same in the eyes of the state either, under such circumstances if the Islamic forces come to attain majority and it is indeed a distinct possibility in Egypt or Yemen or Bahrain etc do you think they’d
    transform these places into true secular democracies ? Do you think the support for Al-Queda or Hamas etc would reduce if pro-Islamic groups came to power?

    Yes, the revolution was by people oppressed, yes it was about respect but what will it end in? Russian revolution was not about socialism or Marxism it was
    about a set of people oppressed – where did it end up ..in Stalin and 50 years of cold war, countless lives lost in Vietnam, Afghanistan, India/Pakistan, Iran/Iraq.

    I am not an Islamophobe, I love what Islam and Islamic culture has done for my country for the world. I just think that time has come for all of us to reexamine these religions (hiduism/islam/christianity/judaism) and their tenets and if required throw them out.

    • hossam says:
      March 19, 2011 at 11:08 am

      @Shishir

      you are right the long the term effects of the egyptian revolution is not yet known, and whether or not the Muslim Brotherhood will “take over” like many people are afraid (noting that they are not running for presidency) but what does that have to do with Islam itself?

      The point is not to judge a religion by what people do;
      Islam is not what Muslim people do
      Judaism is not what Jewish people do
      Christianity is not what Christian people do

      do not judge Islam by what fundamentals or extremist or terrorists do
      do not judge Judaism by what the IDF does and what Israel does
      do not judge Christianity by what George bush did

      Even though i would prefer a secular egyptian state, who’s to say that secularism is a test of a religion?

      there are many states with christianity as a state religion (e.g. Denmark, Iceland, Norway, Finland) and there are also secular, muslim majority states (e.g. Azerbaijan, Gambia, Kosovo, Mali, Senegal, Syria, Tajikistan, Turkey, Turkmenistan, and Uzbekistan)

      can you let me know what evidence suggests that islam and secularism do not “gel”?

      as for blasphemy laws, they are always controversial, they are still being debated even in highly democratic european countries, some of which do have laws against blasphemy, of course the penalty there is not as tough as in pakistan, but again are we judging a religion based on what is the penalty on blasphemy? i don’t think you can post a cartoon in a german or danish newspaper with of a big nosed man with a star of david on his forehead and his armed wrapped around the world. so where is the freedom then?

      • Shishir says:
        March 24, 2011 at 3:27 pm

        I beg to differ.

        Would you disassociate communism from what Lenin, Stalin, Mao etc did you would not? If you read Marx, and he makes a very interesting read, you’d realize that his communism differs a great deal from what was actually practiced but do you make the difference?

        Religion is what majority of religious people do, nothing more nothing less. Because if you take away that and get down to essential core of it you’d find almost all religions are essentially the same.

        I think secularism is a test of a religion because it tells me whether or not this religion shows signs of growth (not in number of people of that faith but in true growth) in its philosophy via debate via exchange of ideas. I would say my definition of secularism is a secularism of ideas with absolutely no space for public god/religion.

        Why do I say Islam and secularism don’t gel? Well simply because it makes no distinction between borders of state and religion in public/private sphere. If you are going to quote me the charter of medina, I’m going to point to you that Mohammed created it only to ensure he had sufficient force and followers. It was a political treaty, and as such had nothing to do with religion of Islam. You realize it almost immediately when you look at the subsequent 10 years.

        As to your point about blasphemy laws, I don’t think in European country someone is going to issue a fatwa against you if you drew anything ..but in an islamic republic..??

  6. Shishir says:
    March 14, 2011 at 9:05 am

    Ms. Hazleton, I am not sure I said anything in my comment which could be construed as offensive, but my comment seems to have been censored/deleted.

    I’ve no issues with that really, I just wish to know what
    is the commenting policy.

    • Lesley Hazleton says:
      March 14, 2011 at 10:57 am

      First-time commenters need to be approved by me, and I’m deliberately not online 24/7, thus the delay. Re commenting policy: I’m fine with all points of view, no matter if they directly oppose my own, so long as they do not denigrate others. If that happens, I will ask the commenter to stop doing this. If they then do not stop, I will, however unwillingly, deny access.

  7. The Antidote to 9/11? | IslamiCity says:
    September 26, 2012 at 6:39 am

    […] The Accidental Theologist – Lesley […]

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